slashy | quick update

Current Mood: sick

quick update

I'm sick. And yes, you all knew that already, but I'm talking about the cold this time. My nose is stuffed up, my throath aches and I'm sneezing... oh, about every minute.

This is what happens when:

1. Someone allergic to dust works in a bookstore, then helps to dismantle a built in mini-theatre in the kids section.
2. The weather in Puerto Rico suddenly gets cold for the whole holiday season and apparantely not stopping until after Valentine's... (I'm used to living with the temp at about 80-89F, not 75F.... the wind is blowing and it's cold!)
3. I forget to take medicine and now it's too late 'cause I gotta get to work in about an hour... and the non-drowsy kind? ha... don't believe that!

Shit!

Anyway... What I really wanted is input. I need to work on Feb.'s entry for the Joxerotica's 2005 Challenge. The fic will contain torture. I've never done torture. It's important for it to have torture. Yet I don't know if I can write it so it's believable. But I don't want to gloss over it. It at least needs to be there for about 2 or 3 paragraphs. Then, I can wave my artistic license and get away with something else.

But... ARGH! I don't know how to go about it!

Help! Please?

With a chocolate {insert name of guy of your choice here} on top? ;-D

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depending on the type of torture, lovey, I'll give you a hand. :)

Sorry I took so long to reply... With the being sick and work and this f***ing pain in my shoulder, I'm not inclined to sit and type a lot.

It's the 'torture-torture' kind of torture. Not the 'we're doing this for fun-torture'.

no worries sweets. And I figured. I meant are we flogging or thumb screws? Chinese water torture? :D

It's a pissed off and possibly insane Athena, with toys (though what kind of toys... I can only guess), and much physical torture. Enough to leave him almost dead.

that could be fun...message me this evening and we'll work on it, ok?

What kind of torture? Like the kind designed to kill or the kind that's for S&M? I'm good with vamps torturing people if that helps. Or someone torturing Angel, big poof. LOL

It's set on the X:WP verse, with ::gasp:: Joxer being tortured, and not for fun.

I sorta wanted to see how others do it. I'm not a big fan of reading b/d, but I really need this in this fic.

Hmm, for Joxer. Well it depends, if this is someone like a god, or someone that knows Joxer at all a good mind fuck would probably hurt him worse than any physical pain ever could. He's gotten used to physical over the years after all.

If it's someone else though... burning is always painful, with brands or just sticking his hand in a flame against his will. There is the every popular whipping or flogging, starvation, not letting his drink more than just a little bit, peeling bits of skin off in front of his eyes. Crushing all his small bones, the ones that would be hard to set like hands and feet.

You could also ask at

little_details for torture implements and ideas. That community has lots of help for fanfic writers.

Hope this helps a little!

*looks outside where its minus 20 celsius (-4 F) after windchill*

how terrible for you to be plagued by 75 F weather, I feel for you. *hugs*

Dress warmly. *lends you a parka*

Yeah... I know.

But when one's body is used to 83+F, 75-F is chilly! And I think what we feel is lower because of all of the dry/cold wind blowing.

But thanks for the parka!

I've done torture before, what kind of help do you need? Do you need it graphic or glossed over? And how you write it will, of course, depend on the relationship between the torturer and the person being tortured, the type of torture will depend upon that as well. It's actually harder to write (at least it was for me) than you'd think.

And 75F?! I turn the air conditioner on at that point up here. *G*

fuck, fuck fuck! I hate when I hit reply and my connection had dropped and I get sent to "The Page Cannot Be Displayed" and I loose all I wrote!

FUCK!

Ok...

I didn't want to give out much of the story, but I guess it won't hurt.

The story is set in my "Righting Wrongs"!verse, wherein Athena decides to avenge the lost of 'her' godhood, by kidnapping Joxer (and incidentally Erin/Strife) and torturing him(to later kill) in front of Erin/Strife.

I mostly need to write (believably) two or three tortures, increasing in pain level/tolerance, cut into possibly two short scenes. I'm not sure if I can get too graphic but I can't totally gloss (if that makes sense). Afterwards I kinda need to be able to describe how Joxer looks (more than just saying bloody/mangled).

LJ's been eating a whole lot of messages lately; I've lost two big ones after I forgot to save them first and yeah, I did a bit of yelling myself.

(This will be two posts due to length.)

Interesting; the most recent torture scene I did was with Joxer.

Athena though...that'll be different. Athena, being a goddess more associated with wisdom and thinking in general, I'd see confining her tortures (the ones she oversees personally, at least) to ones that really fuck with Joxer's mind. (Excuse the language, but I think it's appropriate here.) Remember that some of the worst sorts of torture are mental in nature, and combining that with physical torture can tear a person's personality down.

She'd want to wear him down first, both physically and mentally because one is connected to the other. I'd start with deprivation of multiple kinds. You can strip Joxer (because the lack of clothing tends to make most humans feel vulnerable) and place him in a very empty cell or room with either extremely bright light at all times, or no light at all, and the temperature either slightly too cold or hot (cold is good because the body uses up a lot of energy reserves trying to preserve heat). Food and water may be withheld entirely, although it also may be more effective to give him too little of each. A sip of water and crust of bread or the like. Not enough to maintain his energy reserves, but enough to keep him from totally dehydrating.

Athena (or whomever is doing the torturing for her) wouldn't need to speak to him at that time, in fact, it would be good if he was left on his own, to let his own mind work up horrific scenarios for what will happen to him. (The human mind is excellent at scaring itself.)

The object of all this is that by the time Athena is ready to deal with Joxer, he will be physically exhausted from trying to keep warm and mentally exhausted from everything he's been thinking, scaring himself with "what ifs" and "might happens."

At that point, actual torture can begin. And that can vary.

Being that it's Athena, I'd expect her to take her time and work more on his mind. Threaten not Joxer himself, but make casual, offhand comments about causing harm to people Joxer loves, perhaps even showing him "fake" (or even real) scenes of those people being hurt (not killed, because then the threat loses its potency, especially with repetition).

You'd want to keep these "sessions" short at first, with long periods of isolation in between. It has more impact that way. Not too many of them though.

Athena might want to ask Joxer pointless questions during these sessions. Things Joxer has no hope of knowing the answer to, simply because of that fact, that it will fill Joxer with a sense of frustration and eventual hopelessness. When Joxer fails to answer -- as he will -- Athena can then cause more "fake" (or real) harm to the people Joxer cares about, or -- if physical torture has been reached at that point -- to Joxer himself. (Example: "Tell me the movements of Caesar's troops in Gaul, or Gabrielle will have a strip of skin carved from her arm/your finger will be broken.)

Joxer's going to want to know what this is about; he'll assume -- and it's logical -- that it's about him, that there's something Athena wants from him.

(Continued-->)

When he's near a breaking point, it would be good for Athena to then reveal that it has little to do with him at all, that she's torturing him for Strife to see. That will be a horrible blow to Joxer and likely help break down more of his resistance because a) he now knows that there's is nothing Athena wants from him and therefore, there's no way for him to stop this torture, nothing he can give her to satisfy her, and because of that, there is the distinct possibility that the torture will never stop; b) he will either know or think that Strife is seeing this and can't help him for whatever reason. So his friend/lover is being forced to see his degradation and that will hurt Joxer badly, adding on another layer of helplessness. This will all help bring about a sense of growing despair and Joxer will be even more vulnerable to whatever Athena wants to do to him.

Some physical torture is good after this too. Once Joxer realizes that there's no hope, that Strife can't help him, Athena might start with threats to him physically. Like handing him over to her troops (and while saying this, have someone molest him a bit, but not all the way, not outright rape, just the threat of it, the hands on him). Possibly something like pulling his hair out, one or two strands at a time because it "entertains" her (she'd want to keep a casual, maybe even slightly bored tone while talking too; the idea that your torturer has no feelings about it, no emotional involvement, is a deeply scary, and scarring thing).

Whatever she does, if she decides to go towards full-out breaking of limbs and dislocating of joints, it needs to be built up to, or at least threatened first. The warning, the anticipation of pain is nearly as horrific as the pain itself.

At some point, Athena may threaten to turn Joxer over to someone else, maybe another god who really enjoys pain, and threaten to keep him alive indefinitely for it. Or perhaps she actually does it (and you can have a rescue proceed from there).

(It should be noted here that "sessions" should be held to shorter times at first and not too long even as they progress and Joxer is subjected to more. Too much at once or too soon together and eventually Joxer will become too shocked and/or numb to react and the torture looses its effectiveness.)

It's interesting that you're having Athena be the one to do torture because I think she'd be highly effective with it. People/gods like Ares or Zeus would jump right to the physical with thumb screws, racks, etc. and that's something that someone like Joxer could survive, sanity intact. Eventually, after enough physical pain, many people (and I think this could include Joxer) can find a way to retreat to a mental "safe place" where it no longer effects them.

The beauty (and horror) of combining physical with mental torture, is that it breaks down mental walls and removes all possibility of that "safe place." It gives the victim no out, no escape.

The problem you're going to face though, is that the types of things I'm describing above cause incredible damage to the psyche. Physical things can be healed, to some extent, but the damage this will do to the mind can drive someone insane, permanently fracture their personality. It's not something anyone recovers from overnight or even over a year. It has lasting effects, leaves "triggers" that can pop up in the oddest of places and times. Joxer will never be the same person he was before Athena got hold of him, and that will be hard to deal with, I think, as both a writer and for the characters around him.

I hope this helps. Let me know if you need any more or want more clarification/more suggestions.

Oops! Forgot to address other things in your post.

How would Joxer look? Greatly depends on what was done to him. If it was mostly mental torture and only a little physical, then he could well just have a few cuts and bruises and all the damage would be on the inside, in his head.

If there's been more physical torture, then that also depends on what was done. Done right, it would start small, so, little things. Missing fingernails, missing patches of hair, broken toes and fingers, but not compound fractures on the first few. That would be something that needed working up to. It's possible that a few fingers or toes could be cut off, if it got that far.

Cuts, bruises; slow piercing of nipples with heated needles is always an interesting one. The same with the genitals. That would leave very red but not bleeding marks. Very, very painful but not likely to get infected or gush blood.

Basically, Joxer could be a bloody (literally) mess, or he could barely be touched physically. Just depends on what you do.

You said Athena has lost her godhood, right? Okay, that changes something. She couldn't "show" Joxer anything at that point, so he couldn't see her threats of his family or friends being tortured, but she could still make them, describe what was being done to his friends/family (even if it's a lie, how would Joxer know that for sure?). She'd need to keep calm about it though, because seeing that would be worse for Joxer than anger and/or spite/enjoyment. If Athena keeps calm, Joxer has nothing to rage against, nothing visible to get a grasp on and fight.

And yet another addition here.

If Athena's lost her powers, then it'll be more difficult to claim that Strife is watching the whole thing if he isn't in the same room.

Point here, Strife should not be in the same room for most of what Joxer goes through. It would give Joxer something to hold on to, hope that if his friend/lover is there, then either they'll be all right or they can get through this together or whatever. They need to be kept separate since it generates more mental stress.

However, Strife can be brought in at some point, possibly when Athena reveals that Strife has seen everything that happened. Strife should probably be whole and untouched when that happens. The sight of his friend/lover standing there hale and hearty when Joxer is broken, will be a mental blow to both Joxer and Strife.

As to whether Strife should be allowed to speak at that time, I'm a bit iffy on that one. On one hand, speaking could give them both something to hold on to, a sort of helping hand, but on the other, if Athena remains indifferent to Strife's words, those words could be made to seem desperate and pointless and make things worse. I guess it just depends on how you'd like to handle it.

Anyway, if Strife is to observe what's happening to Joxer, it should be from another room where he's held helpless and unable to communicate with Joxer and Joxer doesn't know he's there until Strife is brought into Joxer's presence.

I think that's all I have at the moment. I'll write more if anything else occur rs to me.

Ok... cool. That was very... um... informative... ::breaks downs into sobs:: Oh God! I don't know if I can do that to JOXIE!!! ::wails::

::Apollo hits her over the head:: "Jo! Chill. Remember the plot plan."

Okay... ::deep breath::

This is awesome and gave me tons of ideas to work from.

To clear this up for myself and you guys (I love you guys!!!), here's what I'm thinking:

This is set right after "Prioritizing" so Athena will kidnap Joxer and Erin/Strife (who's about 5 years old in this series).
Athena is still the goddess of logic and wisdom, though is still reeling from being stipped of the godhood of war (which was Ares')
The torture will be mainly physical, with a few mind fucks thrown in. I don't want to permanently damage Joxer... not in this.

Now... if only this f***ing pain my shoulder goes away, I could start to *really* write. Last night was a 'sit and do nothing but watch tv 'cause any movement was agony' night. Today looks like it's going that same way too. :sigh::

Thanks bunches all of you guys.

Um...I really hate to be the one to tell you this, but any type of torture, any sort, will damage someone permanently. I'm talking psychologically, not necessarily physically. That's not to say they can't overcome the effects through perseverance, the support of friends/family and psychiatric help, but the damage will be there after the torture and the effects of it -- even if they learn to work past them and move on with life -- will always be with them, shaping/reshaping who they are.

It doesn't take full out beatings, rape, broken bones, etc. to do that type of damage, it can be something as little as a threat. A person being helpless beneath that threat. For example, Joxer knowing he's in Athena's power and her threatening to break his leg if he doesn't tell her something. It's not just pain that is torture, it's the threat of it that can do just as much damage, because there is no way to retaliate or to escape.

PTSD would probably be the most common ailment suffered from an experience such as that, add on paranoia, a complete lack of trust in other people, and there's so much more that could happen.

There seems to be a myth in fanfic that good sex will make all this better, erase the bad memories and replace them with good ones. It really doesn't happen that way. Torture of any type, including rape but also so many other sorts, can make it so hard for someone to deal with physical contact afterwards. It's likely Joxer won't want to be touched at all for a long time; it won't matter if it's his lover or his friends, the thought of anyone touching him could well bring up horrible memories.

The upshot of this is, no matter what sort of torture happens to Joxer, he'll be damaged. That's just realistic. Even if he makes it through the ordeal without breaking -- and everyone has their breaking point, everyone; don't let Hollywood fool you about that -- there will be damage under the surface, in his mind. The way he views people and situations will be altered, likely permanently.

This isn't an easy thing to deal with. Writing the torture is actually easier than writing the aftermath, and it's the aftermath that will help make the torture itself even more believable.

*head-desk*

F*ck!

You're right. You're totally and completly right. And now... I'm not sure if I can write this.

I have 19 days until the deadline, and no way can I write this. At least not that soon.

And now, I'm wondering if I really want to go this route, 'cause the resolution I had won't really mend this. And I don't think I can write the aftermath, or the torture. Like I said, I don't really care for extreme b/d, even when it's consensual.

*sigh*

I think... I think this is officially dead. I couldn't do this plot bunny justice.

Thanks Erin, for real. I would have abandoned this in the middle, and you saved me a lot of trouble. The bunny is up for grabs if anyone wants it. I can explain it further if you'd like.

It does take a heck of a lot to write something like that, not just time-wise, but mind set too. I can come up with a great plot that involves Joxer being tortured over a long period of time and in the process, brainwashed to turn against and spy on/betray Xena and Hercules, but would I really want to write it? Even if I had the kind of time something like that would take, I really don't think that's a mental place I'd care to visit because in order to write torture, you have to put yourself in the minds of both the victim and the torturer, and neither is a very happy place.

Yeah, Joxer would have long lasting psychological effects from anything done to him, but if you're not really mentally prepared and get too caught up in researching/writing it, there's a chance you will too. It's a scary proposition and nothing I'd go into lightly.

BDSM is vastly different from torture, no matter how it might appear. It's consensual, as you mentioned, but the "submissive" generally has ways of being the one really in control, even aside from a safe word. It's all about pleasure and mental release, not about damage. Being able to write that has no bearing on whether or not you can write torture or even stomach it at all; two separate things.

However, that's not to say you should abandon your story. Can you just rework the plot? Maintain the same starting place, the same goal towards the end, but reach it through different means?

Yeah... you said perfectly. I'm not sure if I want to go there, you know.

And, yeah, I'm most definately gonna change how I work this story. I'm still gonna do Athena's revenge, but somehow else. And that's something I'm gonna have to think about.

So... now, I have to think of a 1500+ words story for the Feb. entry.

Hugs and thanks a million, Erin!

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quick update

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